«ЦК КПСС x Педология» – У вас есть документы?

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

Здравствуйте, psyhistorik.

Today I was reading my Portuguese version of this document:
ЦК ВКПб «О педологических извращениях в системе наркомпросов» (1936).
It’s dated from July, 5, 1936 - I think the correct is "4 июля 1936" - It’s not a translation from Russian but from an Argentine edition. The author said that it is "integral". There are 8 pages, no much characters per page - at first glance, comparing with Russian it's ok.

It’s very instructive. But my question is about 2 two other documents quoted at the end:

«Признать неправильными
[1] постановления Наркомпроса РСФСР об организации педологической работы
и
[2] Постановление СНК РСФСР от 7 марта 1931 года «Об организации педологической работы в республике».»

Can you point me how can I find any copy of these two documents? Do you already have a topic about this matter? What exactly was the contents of these “постановления” – who was the responsible for their redaction an approbation by the Soviet Government, etc.?


Thank you very much.

Comments

Re: Krupskaia and Bubnov at Narkompros since 1929?

[ipain.livejournal.com]

my guess, it's a simple formality. at some point krupskaya become untouchable, and her posts were just for public sake.

Re: Krupskaia and Bubnov at Narkompros since 1929?

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

I understand. Probably she had no choice but accept for survive... While others was not so lucky. Not so simple to separate the bad guys from the good ones, no? Don't you think? Perhaps she could try use the position to help some other people not so saved to survive too - this could be an interesting possible motivation, too - I don't know about historical clues for this, but could seems verosimile. Of course we are not beyond this inner contradiction of human existence, too... But there are some versions of history sometimes a little simplified... To quest for the social dramatic real life historical process, look at some contradictions maybe can be interesting... It's interesting about Lunacharsky too, at 1930 - "Академик АН СССР", if I understand well - of course, did not must be only formal cause he was really a very important cultural reference. But... Moved away from Narkompros and accepted at Science Academy? So hard times, spite so creative too... :(

Best.

Re: Krupskaia and Bubnov at Narkompros since 1929?

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

I understand. Probably she had no choice but accept for survive... While others was not so lucky. Not so simple to separate the bad guys from the good ones, no? Don't you think? Perhaps she could try use the position to help some other people not so saved to survive too - this could be an interesting possible motivation, too - I don't know about historical clues for this, but could seems verosimile. Of course we are not beyond this inner contradiction of human existence, too... But there are some versions of history sometimes a little simplified... To quest for the social dramatic real life historical process, look at some contradictions maybe can be interesting... It's interesting about Lunacharsky too, at 1930 - "Академик АН СССР", if I understand well - of course, did not must be only formal cause he was really a very important cultural reference. But... Moved away from Narkompros and accepted at Science Academy? So hard times, spite so creative too... :(

Best.

свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

krupskaya and lunacharsky were icons. they were forced away from authority zone, but this suppose to be hidden from the public. its actually a very common strategy.

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

Ipain,

Your analisys is very instructive to me.

I must conclude that dictatorial governments has different “modus operandi” in capitalist and socialist societies. Because here in Brazil we had military dictatorship along many years too (1964 - 1980s), as perhaps you already knew, and their strategy with people that disagree with the Generals was basically the following

1) Prison
2) Torture
3) Murder
4) Expulsion of the country
5) Cooptation
6) Combinations of the previous.

We can understand that these techniques was not equally used to the same kind of people… Numbers 1, 2, and 3 are very more common with poor people, and anonymous people, even to the more radical opponent people, and more dangerous people to the Generals. While number 4 and 5 are more common to be used with reach people, the celebrities (as artists, great public figures, politicians, etc.), and even with the less radical activists against dictatorship, of course.

So, I wonder that this strategy of Stalinist regime, in transform their opponents in icons, loved by all the people, transferring this same love to Soviet highest authorities, but even so inapt to act in favor of the same peoples liberation, was a kind of cooptation, and/or a kind of prison in their own bodies - strategy that here in Brazil we didn’t have at that dictatorship times… If my reasoning has some foundation, we can conclude that this iconicity gives some clues that people like them (Lunacharsky, Krupskaya, and so on) was transformed in mute collaborators of Stalin’s regime, at the end… If this is not so… what was their actual social roles in the Resistance? And who was the anonymous heroes that made this resistance, while the icons were in their cathedras and/or political formal positions? Sometimes here in Brazil we had a more romantic appreciation about some people close to Vygotsky at any time in past.

I suppose this is a matter of “social roles psychology”, within social history of psychological science.

Thank you.

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

i doubt it any different in brasil. its a group thingie, even among generals were many disagreements (as inside stalin's or lsv's circles). it happens inside families too, hard to see for outsiders, but possible.

those silent supports are supports, negotiated niches from authorities. cooptation if u will. but "resistance" is suppose to have "moral frames" attached, and i would try to avoid them in analyses. its just a different tactics, there are no winners or trivial solutions. all attempts were made in good faith ("деятельность есть молярная не аддитивная единица жизни ...").

it is all one science.

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

I appreciate your analysis, very much. Its very synthetic and so deep. Ever makes me rethink. But then, only some more few questions:

1) And if we change “resistance” by “opposition”? Disagreements among generals is not the same a ostensive political opposition. Dispite I don´t recognize here in Brazil any clear opposite to our Generals here that turns a national hero at that times, I will consider this possibility too…

2) Even in this line of reasoning, You are very correct about avoid “moral frames”, I agree. But, don’t you that these kind of frames are present in many evaluations about history of psychology in URSS and latter? Sometimes Vygotsky seems to be put as any kind of hero, and others as traitors, for instance? Another day you showed us a Court decision very interesting against some abuses of “science” in educional problems… This was very important to me at that moment… a confrontation to easy judgments and condemnations to process and acts lived by persons that not ourselves, in times and spaces in that we are not to see and participate. But, again… I think that has been more common “moral framed” analysis, sometimes.

3) By the other side. If social roles psychology an history of social science are all one and the same science, the historical actor, playing their roles are supposed to have any axiological orientation, to make their decisions, their choices… We can not establishes if that orientations are right or wrong, good or evil, but seems to be necessary to understand something about what was that axiological orientation, the motives, affective-volitional spheres that permit to understand the meaning of they are telling to us… Or not?

I really don´t know even how actually a psychologist will can do this even to a person in front us, here and now… spite this is a goal, and a challenge to me, since I begin to read Vygotsky’s contributions… Perhaps trying to understand this making-meaning process in historical personages/actors, that lived in other time-space, could help to transfer a methodology of analysis (semantic/semiotic/"semic"/semicheskii…) to everyday life too… That proposition that its all one science is very important, and powerful… But to me, until now, the methodological paths are not very clear yet… Let me study more…

Then:

4) What do you indicate to me, about methodology of the history of psychological science, in a historical-cultural methodological approach to these studies? I must try Hegel? Marx? Hobsbawm? Benjamin? Politzer? Some Russians authors that I didn't have the opportunity to know, etc.?

Thank you.

Achilles.

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

1) my dissertation was suppose to be about personal motivation for participating in unauthorized grassroot movements in the late ussr. "heroes, opposition, national" was their terminology, i've called it 'political mythology' in an article later on.

2) i disagree with using those frames when analysing soviet psychology. they usually employed out of one's personal political position, usually standard narrative rhetoric devices - hence traitors and heroes (propp). problems are never go away, so other places and times ppl are solving our problems as we are theirs. one who gets it first, will share. sharing is compelling. beats everything else.

3) there is an axiological orientation, danilova i think talks about it in her article, and check out this (http://community.livejournal.com/translate_gp/1626.html?thread=26458#t26458) exchange. my standard exercise is to find such a position (for say a historical actor), which puts a discussed decision in the area of judgement calls (substracting инструменты опосредствования недоступные актеру). it does help with methodology of analyses a lot.

4) puzyrei 1986 kit book

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

You give me essential teachings. Thank you very much, I will try to learn right. Only a little bit about the references:

1) Your dissertation and article are publically available? Can you indicate were can we find both? Even if not publically available, is there some means to order it for a book-magazine, or any other legal service that don’t prejudice the author and his/her copyrights, etc., East View, perhaps?

2) About Puzirey, I have this book in English: Пузырей А.А. Психология. Психотехника. Психагогика. – М.: Смысл, 2005. – 488 с – in pdf version. Thanks Prof. Doroty Robbins. There is a copy here = http://www.4shared.com/file/227726898/ee35efa2/A_A_Puzyrei_-_Psychology_Psych.html? ; and this one too = Contemporary Psychology and Vygotsky’s Cultural-Historical Theory; with a copy here: http://www.4shared.com/file/227725424/1fd82cc8/A_A_Puzyrei_-_Contemporary_psy.html?

But this kit book from 1986, that you refer about, I really don’t knew about it yet. It is related to this paper? = Пузырей А.А. Культурно-историческая теория Л.С. Выготского и современная психология МГУ.,1986. с.69-102 – This seems to be the same “Contemporary Psychology and Vygotsky’s Cultural-Historical Theory”,– and it is only a single paper - I will read soon, but is not that you indicate. I’m trying here, but I have not much success… There are some interesting texts here too – “Психология и новые идеалы научности” http://psyberlink.flogiston.ru/internet/bits/psychsci0.htm . Forgive me. Can you give me the entire title, please?

Thank you again…

Achilles.

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

1) the ussr was gone before dissertation was complete, so there is only a newspaper article and a movie. i'll transfer them to electronic format someday.

2) puzyrei's book of 1986 (Пузырей А.А. Культурно-историческая теория Л.С. Выготского и современная психология МГУ., 1986) is about 116 pages, its reprinted in 2005 book on pages 67-183 of russian edition. so i was talking about your second file - A_A_Puzyrei_-_Contemporary_psy.

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

1) I understand.
2) Thank you again.

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

kit = КИТ = Культурно-Историческая Теория (выготского)

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

Cool!

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

dear achilles,

"Social roles psychology and history of psychology as all one science" - was your (http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/55244.html?thread=323276#t323276) formula. "social roles psychology" is a bit too vague for me outside the context of our discussion. however, i do understand and agree with that formula and if you want to refer to it, then i think link to this thread would be appropriate. and "ipain" then is the proper author.

though i would not claim to be the first, if we generalize this there are many people who were saying the same things - каждый пишет как он дышит (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyqtfgeI_DE).

Re: свадебные генералы

[(Anonymous)]

I can not found the place,

But, in that opportunity I was saying:

-- "Can we see the dramatic social relations of leaving beings in history, the psychology of their own contradictory personalities in relation to to own history of psychology?"*

And you answer:

-- "It1s all one science"....

I will find the exact post, and replace it here.

Thank you Профессор Ипайн.

==================================

* = The problem was: there was no persons as "totally heroes" nor "totally villains", but historical persons has human beings (or vice versa). The own great fish Nemo, another day, was furious about the myth of "Vygotsky with 'super powers' in geniality"... And I agree 100% with with Nemo, about this point. But I wanna add that there was no "super powers in morality" for nobody, as well. Everybody had some parcel of responsibility with the major mistakes of his own Nation, including me in my country high now - perhaps not so much power to make things different, but ever some responsibility. I am not talking about guilt, or sin, or purification, nor redemption, or punishment by all mistakes, in the more traditional dictatorial or inquisitorial mechanic moralistic meaning, but about humanity, human ethics values, conflicts, decisions, volition, life with contradictions. Seems to be more interesting think history of societies and historical development of persons, in this manner. See the critizing of the myths of "Cinderella" for Vygotsky apparition, etc. We have the myths about ourselfs, future history can make them tumbling down or ont, probally can only make our myths and logos be forget forever... Who knows...

... But you don't say, I can say since now by my self.


"Булат Окуджава Я пишу исторический роман"
Я слушал... и любил *мелодия*. И не всё понимал ещё.
Спасибо большое.

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

yes, check out above thread - that's the place.

and yes, i do agree with your paragraph. history of science have social roles (more precise would be positions) of scientists as a stage to perform. and this of course holds power to make things different = to make history.

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

"Position" (Foucault?), can be better than "role"... I don't like much the "role" idea as "prescription x performance"... But in a same position, can not have somebody even different roles? Can you give me some samples of "positions"? In Vygotsky's text maybe to be the "judge" could be a "social position"? Somebody that have special powers to decide? But the same Judge can do his decision based in his social prescription to be right, and/or based in the cultural power of his love by his wife... I understand such kind of sample is very limited, and simplified, but, what is the conceptual addition of the concept "social position" over the more old "social role"? I am particularly interested in the conflict of roles, the different positions of the same concrete human being can stay in conflict at one and the same instantaneous moment, and/or "happening" (sobytie?) - that demands some more specific "positioning" by the actor not only the actor of the "akt", but also of the "postupk"???

Please you dont need kill me because my ignorance, but can explain something more in order do diminish it a little?

Thank you very much.
Achilles from Brazil.



P.S. Soon I will found the exact place that have our conversation. Its not so simple because we have dozens of posts in past.

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

Do you know the book from Politzer about "Crisis of psychology"?
here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/44837951/Politzer-Georges-A-crise-da-psicologia-contemporanea-em-frances
or here: http://www.4shared.com/document/zF5CDi9a/politzer-crise_psicologia_-_Cp.html?

There was interesting key words that I could found there, as for instance:

* "Crisis of psychology".
* "Concrete psychology".
* "Drama".
* "New psychology".
* "Psychotecnics".
* (...)

Politzer was a reader of Vygotsky, I could presume??? Or there was not exactly this the positions relationships?

==> This is something about social "positions" in history of science, for instance...

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

i do not know politzer book.

"position" is a term from odi games and more generally shedrovitsky mmk approach: position as a personal ontology. its different from roles, thou there are many intersections. "conflict of roles" is solved by removing the concept of a role thru reflexive means toward a reflexive position. odi games is art of creating happenings for ontological foundations.

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

Это Г.П. Щедровитский?

Например:

* Г.П. Щедровицкий “Принципы и общая схема методологической организации системно-структурных исследований и разработок” - М.: Наука, 1981, с. 193-227

* "теория дея-тельностного подхода (Г.П. Щедровитский, 1993)"

И так дале?

Re: свадебные генералы

[(Anonymous)]

Это Г.П. Щедровитский?

Например:

* Г.П. Щедровицкий “Принципы и общая схема методологической организации системно-структурных исследований и разработок” - М.: Наука, 1981, с. 193-227

* "теория дея-тельностного подхода (Г.П. Щедровитский, 1993)"

И так дале?

Re: свадебные генералы

[ipain.livejournal.com]

http://www.fondgp.ru/lib/int

Re: свадебные генералы

[achilles-brazil.livejournal.com]

Огромное Спасибо!